When Jennifer Knapp broke into Christian music in the 90s, we’d never heard anyone quite like her before. A soulful voice with lyrics to match, Jennifer took the CCM scene by storm—until she stepped out of the spotlight just a few years into her career, after an unrelenting scheduled left her body exhausted and her creative well drained. After a seven-year hiatus, Jennifer came back in full force with a powerful, courageous confession: she is gay and had been in a relationship with a woman since 2002. With unapologetic honesty, Jennifer has kept exploring her faith publicly in a memoir called Facing the Music, and even started an organization called Inside Out Faith, which advocates for the affirmation of our LGBTQ brothers and sisters in our faith communities. Today she and Jen talk about how she found faith in her college years and started weaving it into her music, and after she returned from her extended break—where she engaged in a fight for her own belovedness and belonging—she is now helping others find theirs.
 
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Jennifer Knapp on Music, God, and Speaking Her Truth

Welcome to the For the Love Podcast community. New York Times Bestselling author Jen Hatmaker’s life’s work is to lead and serve women as they genuinely show up for their own lives. In these conversations we need not fear the truth, or hard questions, or spiritual curiosity, or challenging unjust systems; that is literally why we are here, and we’re so glad you’ve joined us. We believe women living in freedom are the answer to all that ails society. When we are exactly who we are, how we are, where we are, as we were always meant to be, women are the 8th wonders of the world. For the love of all that is good, right, wrong, hard, fun, perplexing, wondrous and thought-provoking, Jen’s here for it all with eye-opening conversations with some of the best people on earth.

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Making a change in our lives can feel like a big, all encompassing thing; and sometimes we avoid change because of that very notion. But here’s some good news: making meaningful change in our lives actually starts with one small choice at a time, and it doesn’t have to be overwhelming or hard. This week, we’ve got the inside scoop on how to form habits that you actually want to stick with and someone who is going to let us in on the simple secrets to real and lasting change. James Clear is the bestselling author of “Atomic Habits.” His approach to building sustainable habits has resonated with millions, helping people make positive changes and reach their full potential. 
In this conversation, James shares personal stories and scientific principles to empower journeys of growth and transformation. Jen even shares her personal experience of choosing one small habit to do each day in the wake of her seismic divorce and how that choice radically affected the trajectory of her recovery. 
Jen and James explore: 

How to embrace a 1% improvement mindset - small, incremental changes compound over time and lead to meaningful results.

The willingness to try different approaches and habits until you find what works for you

Why we’ll be set up for success in the long run by having a toolbox of different strategies instead of adhering to specific “must-have” habits

The importance of focusing on your identity and becoming the type of person you want to be, rather than just setting goals.


No matter where you are in life —you have it within you to make meaningful and practical changes in your life.
* * *
Thought-Provoking Quotes:
“There was a time in my life when I was forced to start small. So I was trying to find little wins; just something I could look at and be like 'Today was a good day.' I think that mindset ended up really helping me in later life." - James Clear
"The whole world is going to emphasize your position and where you are. What I'm trying to emphasize is, "Are you getting 1% better? 1% worse? Is the arrow pointing up to the right, even if it's just a little bit? Or have you flatlined?" Because if you're on a good trajectory, all you need is time. All you need is patience. Time will magnify whatever you feed it." - James Clear
“There is no one way to build better habits. There are many ways. My job is not to tell you how to do it. My job is to lay all the tools out on the table, rather than trying to tell you this is the way to build habits.” - James Clear
“It's very easy, once you're listening to a conversation about habits or thinking about your own habits, to bite off more than you can chew, or start getting pulled in ten directions and be like; 'I'm going to change all ten of these things.' I think one good thing to remind yourself of is this energy will naturally extend into other areas of your life. So maybe take just one of those ten things and try to really master that.” - James Clear
"There's this common advice that if something doesn't work, you should try, try, try again and I think the better advice is if something doesn't work, you should try, try, try differently." - James Clear
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Atomic Habits by James Clear: https://jamesclear.com/atomic-habits
James Clear’s 3-2-1 Newsletter - https://jamesclear.com/3-2-1
Guest’s Links:
James Clear’s Website - https://jamesclear.com/
James Clear’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jamesclear/
James Clear’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/JamesClear
James Clear’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/jamesclear/
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker
Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker
Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker
The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. 
Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/
 
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Embracing Small Habits To Impact Who You Want to Become ft. James Clear

Hey, book lovers! We’ve got something a little different straight coming to you from the Jen Hatmaker Book Club this month, and if you haven’t been a part of the conversation, we invite you to join us and all our fellow book nerds over at JenHatmakerBookClub.com. We’re sharing our March selection, with you, our dear listeners, and we hope it will inspire you and have you thinking a little differently about the lies we tell ourselves as women and how we can get to that next right thing for our lives. We’ve got the fabulous Jamie Kern Lima, the author of a new book called “Worthy.” If you don’t already know about Jamie, she’s the founder of IT Cosmetics and the author of another book, “Believe It,” which told the story of how she founded IT in her living room and how IT went on to be the largest luxury makeup brand in the country. But if that wasn’t enough, she eventually sold the company to makeup giant L’Oreal, making her the first female CEO of a L’Oreal brand in the company’s history. But her story is much more than a rags to riches adventure, which she continues in “Worthy”--it’s about how she overcame a fear of failure, the paralyzation of never feeling like she was enough, and a litany of rejection she faced through all phases of her career.

“Worthy,” contains key lessons Jamie’s learned toward reversing lies we’ve been told and claiming new truths for ourselves, including:


Why self love is important (and not selfish) and mirrors how deeply we can relate to and love others 

You can never achieve enough to feel like you are enough; that comes with believing in yourself innately as who you are

Your past mistakes do not define your present worth or determine your future


As Jamie says, the moment we learn to believe we are worthy is the moment unhealthy relationships fall away, ideas are birthed, and art is shared with the world. She invites us to step into the freedom that happens when we embrace who we truly are and believe we are worthy of the good things that come our way.
* * *
Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“If we don't think we're worthy of something, we will either stay stuck, find a way to sabotage it, or–the best case is–we’ll go for it and achieve it. But we'll still feel unfulfilled and still feel like we're not enough in the process. ” - Jamie Kern Lima

“If you are someone that prides yourself in being selfless and being a giver, and you can't think about doing this for yourself, the greatest gift you can give people is to learn to love yourself, and to learn to believe you are worthy. Because the depth of love that you have for yourself will expand the depth of love you now have for them.” - Jamie Kern Lima

“I do not care how many past mistakes, failures, or things that you feel are shameful or regrettable incidents [you have had]. None of them define your worth.” - Jamie Kern Lima

“I believe your intuition is never wrong. I believe it either leads you to the next right step or the next right lesson. I have peace and trust in that.” - Jamie Kern Lima

“The moment a person learns to believe she is worthy, that is the moment unhealthy relationships end or unhealthy friendships end or ideas are birthed or hands are raised and art is shared with the world.” - Jamie Kern Lima
Guest’s Links:
Jamie’s Website
Jamie’s Instagram
Jamie’s Facebook
Jamie’s Twitter
Jamie’s YouTube
Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Believe It by Jamie Kern Lima
For the Love Podcast Episode ft. Jamie Kern Lima
Worthy by Jamie Kern Lima
For the Love Episode ft. Daniel Pink
Feeding America (Food Bank Charity)
“The Life You Want” Class (Taught by guest teacher Jamie Kern Lima)

Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website - http://jenhatmaker.com/ 
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker
Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ 
Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker
Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1
 
To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy
  
 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

[BONUS] Jen Hatmaker Book Club ft. Worthy by Jamie Kern Lima

Continuing in our series of Embracing Change, Jen talks with an elite athlete who found their life caving in, leaving themselves with no other choice than to flow with the transitions. In this candid conversation, Jen and Olympic figure skater Gracie Gold delve into Gracie's battles with mental health, disordered eating, and the intense pressures of elite athletics.

Gracie’s story speaks to immense strength - navigating the insidious grip of an eating disorder that spanned longer than many of her close relationships. Gracie recounts how the illusion of control through restrictive eating eventually triggered a "nuclear meltdown," forcing her to confront the compounding traumas.

Jen and Gracie explore:


The toxic underbelly of perfectionism glorified in figure skating and its ties to disordered eating

Society's tendency to stigmatize mental illness that doesn't fit a textbook definition

The arduous, perpetual work of managing an eating disorder

Reclaiming authenticity after realizing her projected "ice princess" persona was unsustainable


With refreshing candor, Gracie shares how curiosity and embracing life's small joys enabled her to begin reconstructing an integrated identity beyond skating's rigid expectations. Her courage to openly discuss such profound struggles is a beacon of hope for anyone confronting their inner critic.

* * *

Thought-Provoking Quotes:
"In most industries, to be a woman in this world, typically and historically, you were rewarded if you were smaller." - Gracie Gold

"Instead of feeling anxious that I don't have a plan and I don't have an exact to-do list with everything on it checked off — instead of finding anxiety in that, I try to find freedom." - Gracie Gold

"[I'm] continuing to put one foot in front of the other and being okay with not knowing where I'm going and that the universe will bring me where I'm meant to go." - Gracie Gold

“I just thought I could push through [depression]--very type A. I just thought 'Oh I can push through, if I just work harder, or be better, then it'll go away.' Which it didn't.” - Gracie Gold

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
2014 U.S. Olympic Figure Skating Team (Gracie’s team won a bronze medal) - https://olympics.com/en/olympic-games/sochi-2014/athletes

Outofshapeworthlessloser: A Memoir of Figure Skating, F*cking Up, and Figuring It Out - https://www.amazon.com/Outofshapeworthlessloser-Memoir-Figure-Skating-Figuring-ebook/dp/B0C4J8MLF6

Top Ten Female Figure Skaters of All Time - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest_scores_in_figure_skating

Guest’s Links:
Gracie’s Website - https://graciegold.figureskatersonline.com/
Gracie’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/GracieGold
Gracie’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/GraceEGold
Gracie’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/graciegold95

Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker
Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker
Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1

The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. 
Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/
 
To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy
  
 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Shattering the Ice Princess: Gracie Gold Reveals Her Real Self

Our new series of Embracing Change is a deep examination of all the different ways change shows up in our lives and all the ways we can respond to it. As Jen says in this interview, our guest today went through a “chosen change.” Hers was a transformation that felt inevitable after all the small, incremental posture changes made her ready for the leap to follow — a leap toward more sanity, more love, and more joy. 
Joy Sullivan is a poet and community builder. Her new book “Instructions for Traveling West” is “for anyone flinging themselves into fresh starts.” She received a Masters in poetry from Miami University and has served as the poet-in-residence for the Wexner Center for the Arts. She joins the podcast today sharing her story of walking into the unknown. Through her unique viewpoint as a poet, she unlocks potent ways for us to trust our intuition and stay curious about what is scaring us.
Jen and Joy touch on:

The importance of embracing loneliness and stillness as opportunities for self-discovery and hearing one's true inner voice and callings.

stories from Joy’s life that served as lessons for her to love herself more deeply

Reclaiming selfhood by rupturing constrictive cultural and religious narratives, especially around womanhood and female identity


For anyone feeling the tug to upend the inertia of their life and lean into evolution, this conversation is an inspiring guide for following one's deepest callings into new horizons.

* * *

Thought-Provoking Quotes:
"I started driving west and I spent six weeks hiking in Sedona, being in the beautiful desert. During that time, I really had this sense of awakening and the sense of rupturing. It was that question like, ‘Am I doing work that matters?’ And I was so awake to my life again in that intense way that loneliness just pricks us alive. And I really began to grapple. I just looked at every aspect of my life and said, ‘Could there be more?’" - Joy Sullivan

“I don't think it matters where you go, but to be able to give yourself an opportunity to really reinvent, that's the good stuff.” - Joy Sullivan

"I didn't have the life that I sort of felt like I always should have had based on what a woman was supposed to get — a husband, kids, the stability of the white picket fence, etc. And what's been interesting is when I sort of recreated or fractured some of those stories culturally and religiously that I had been given, my life just expanded into possibility because it had never occurred to me that a woman could be really, really happy if she didn't choose those things." - Joy Sullivan

“Poetry is the only place that can hold the unsayable. It's the only space we have that holds that which cannot be spoken in any other art form. All the ache, all the beauty, all the impossibility of being alive; that's what poems are for.” - Joy Sullivan

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Sustenance (A Community of Poets and Writers founded by Joy Sullivan) - https://joysullivanpoet.com/sustenance
Necessary Salt (Joy Sullivan’s Substack Blog) - https://joysullivan.substack.com/
Instructions For Traveling West by Joy Sullivan (A book of poems coming April 9, 2024) - https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/734503/instructions-for-traveling-west-by-joy-sullivan/

Guest’s Links:
Joy’s Website - https://joysullivanpoet.com/
Joy’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/Joy_E_Sullivan
Joy’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/joysullivanpoet/

Connect with Jen!
Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker
Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker
Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1

The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. 
Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ 
 
To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy
  
 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Flinging Ourselves Into Fresh Starts ft. Joy Sullivan

We’re finishing up our For the Love of Wonderful You series intentionally with a deep breath and a gentle word of encouragement. In this episode, even though we are talking about trauma, critical inner voices, and the arduous process of grief, Jen and her guest unwind these topics in the most gentle and loving way. 

Kobe Campbell is an award-winning therapist who specializes in helping people process grief and trauma in a way that unearths true empowerment. Hidden beneath the clamor of everyday life, the voices of our inner critic lie in wait to echo our grief. These voices, though silent to others, can roar deafeningly within us — shaping our perceptions, beliefs, and actions. Kobe’s suggestions of journal “prompts” help guide our own trauma excavation process, and her gentle but challenging questions further that sometimes painful work, while steering us toward self compassion. 
Jen and Kobe touch on: 

The understanding that grief can take a lot of time to process; which can ultimately lead to wisdom and true empowerment

A working definition of trauma and that trauma is highly personal and contextual

How we can feel brave enough to examine the inner critical voice and discern where it’s coming from

Acknowledging the cultural pressure to live at an unsustainable pace that doesn’t allow space or time to heal


If you ever needed permission to grieve or drop the unrelenting pace of your life, then this is the invitation.
* * *
Thought-Provoking Quotes:
“I love to tell people that trauma is not what happened to you. It's about how it affected you. And those effects can live in our present, even if the moment is in the past. I help people parse through that in creative ways with poems, quick words, and thoughts from my kitchen right after I'm done with the session.” - Kobe Campbell

“I think that many of us have not been given the space to grieve long enough to know what genuine and internal empowerment feels like, and we keep trying to give ourselves that empowerment from the outside. We keep trying to grasp motivation from somewhere.” - Kobe Campbell

"Trauma can be acute, meaning it can be a moment, or trauma can be chronic, meaning it could be several moments over time. And I like to give the example that trauma can be a boulder or it could be pebbles. But the reality is–it doesn't matter. There is no big 'T' trauma and little 't' trauma because, at the end of the day, all those pebbles amass to the size of a boulder anyway. It's just being accumulated over time." - Kobe Campbell

"The person who holds the wound holds the wisdom. If we lock away that version of us that is deeply wounded and wants to cry for three months, then we're also locking away the wisdom of those situations that we need for our present." - Kobe Campbell

"My humanity is good. God created it good. And if I believed that I was good for just existing as I am, how would I treat myself?" - Kobe Campbell

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Why Am I Like This? How to Break Cycles, Heal From Trauma, and Restore Your Faith by Kobe Campbell
Journal Prompt on Kobe’s Instagram
Brain Neuro Coupling
I Feel Like Woman by Shania Twain on Spotify
Minaa B. Website (Therapist and Colleague of Kobe’s)
I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings by Maya Angelou
Michell C. Clark Instagram

Guest’s Links:
Kobe’s Website
Kobe’s Facebook
Kobe’s Twitter
Kobe’s Instagram
Kobe’s TikTok
Kobe’s YouTube

Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube 

The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. 
Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ 
 
To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy
  
 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jennifer Knapp on Music, God, and Speaking Her Truth

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